3. Kevin meets Steve Darling MP

"We have to stand up and make those challenges."

Presenter Kevin Daws sits down with Torbay MP Steve Darling.

Steve has been on the Torbay council since the mid 90s and been an MP since 2024. In fact Steve is one of a few disabled MP's as he is registered blind.

Kevin asks Steve what it's like to be a role model for people with disabilities

Steve talks about Jennie, his guide dog

How politics is within the family

How he like to stick up for disabled people and others without a voice

Want to know more about All 4 Inclusion, visit our website www.all4inclusion.org

Transcript

Steve, can we start by you just telling us a little bit about yourself?

Steve Darling MP (00:38.178)
Yes, I'm Steve Darling. I'm the MP for Torbay. And for me, being the MP, it is about giving agency for people in Torbay and equally champion agency for other people. So getting people to be able to have control of their own lives and whether that is somebody who has a disability or somebody from a poorer background or equally.

somebody who's facing a challenge with bureaucracy, you know, all those things can impact on people's lives, so helping people around that world. A little bit more about myself, so I'm 55, I'm married, I've got a 30-year-old son who is a junior doctor and also a counsellor on Torbay Unitary Authority. My wife has been a counsellor on Torbay Unitary Authority as well, so they're a...

three of us that are councillors on Torbay Unitary Authority. My youngest son is reading economics and politics at Bath University and is currently placed at the Office for Budget Responsibility, which is quite nice because they're about 10 minutes walk from Parliament, so it's nice I can see him even though he's at Bath Uni.

That's fantastic, yes. And correct me if I'm wrong, but before you were elected as MP, weren't you the leader of Torbay Council as well?

Yes, so a little bit back history for me. So I have spent 18 years working for the previous Liberal Democrat MP Adrian Sanders, who was the MP for Torbay as a caseworker helping people. So cut me in half. And it is about how you can help people and facilitate people's lives is really important to me. And I was leader of Torbay Unitary Authority for four years in

Steve Darling MP (02:37.72)
with a partnership between mostly Lib Dem councillors, but also independents. And the most proudest thing that I did on that was ensuring that Torbay stopped failing children's services and became a good service, which was achieved within two years. So that was a really heartening thing for us to achieve as a local community.

That's a really good achievement Steve. Yeah. No issue about that at all. I hope this doesn't sound an unusual question but many disabled people don't always consider themselves be disabled. Do you think of yourself as disabled?

I do. I have a guide dog called Jenny who's a delight, but also a really good bridge to other people. I can, there is the social model of describing disabilities where there's the suggestion that it's society's putting blockers in people's ways. I think there is some merit, but not total merit in that social model. Clearly, if I'm...

you know, is, I think the way that I often look at it with a disability is that it's not that you can't do anything, you may have to do something a bit differently than the next person getting to the same goal. And I'm also very much alive to the gentleman who won Strictly, who talked about, he used three key words that I think is really important for disability, is that you need the opportunity

For to be able to do something you need potentially as a disabled person a bit of support in getting there. And then thirdly, quite often you need determination to be able to get over the line. Because quite often as somebody with a disability, you need to work that bit harder than the next person to achieve the same goals.

Kevin Daws (04:41.134)
Yeah and I assume you're talking about was it Chris McCausland who went to the

Exactly, his name was eluding me at the time, but now you're spot on.

Yeah, no, I read this backstory on that and that was very interesting.

Steve, mean, from what we said earlier, I think you consider yourself more of a role model than a campaigner on disability. So how does that impact you? What pressures does that put on you? How does that affect how you behave being a role model?

I think it is making sure that my disability doesn't define me. So whilst I may be putting questions in Parliament or holding certain Secretaries of State to account in the Department of Work and Pensions, I'm the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for the DWP. So it just so happens that I'm holding those people to account.

Steve Darling MP (05:47.36)
So it's important also that somebody who has had lived experience with some sections of that department, such as access to work and things like that, and also has friends who may be facing challenges around access to work at the moment, are able to push ministers around those issues. it's more the case of having a disability means that I'm perhaps more alive to things.

might be listening to broadcasts such as In Touch, which then triggers further questions that I'll be putting forward. But also, as far as a role model is concerned, I'm that busy that I don't have time to think about that. It's more a case of, it's like only last week, I participated in a careers day for year.

five and six students in a large primary school in Torbay. And I had some really positive feedback about actually youngsters were really interested to see what it wasn't, you if you look at the MP in the local paper, it's somebody complaining about things, but actually when they got under the bonnet and understood it a lot more, it was about how you can help people, which really excited some of the youngsters I chatted with.

That's great. That's really positive feedback.

What?

Kevin Daws (07:20.27)
do you think, sorry, I think I crossed you there. What were you going to say Steve? I was going to ask you Steve, what do you think are the biggest barriers facing disabled people which are preventing them from fully participating in society?

No, no, it's fine.

Steve Darling MP (07:38.958)
Well, it's quite ironic, technology can be a real boon. One just has to look from my own perspective as somebody who's registered blind, how iPads have accessibility built into them as a matter of standard, that that is really, really heartening. So on one level, technology can be really helpful. However, I'm aware that on another level,

technology can be a real burden such as keypads that do not have tactile keys on them for people who are totally blind and having to try to pay by card and aren't able just to tap and pay, who are having to insert the card. So ironically enough, think the technology can be good, can be bad, but also I think there are certain societal

expectations around people with disabilities. And I'm afraid to say sometimes there are prejudices and that's why it's important that this parliament that was elected seven months ago or so is the most diverse parliament where there are people from all walks within the chamber. And I'm really pleased that there are people with a number of

obvious disabilities, not so obvious disabilities who are MPs across the chamber in parliament and that is to be celebrated.

I totally agree with you, Steve. I think it's a pity that proportionally there isn't more disabled MPs in Parliament with that lived experience to inform not just the debates but the decisions made by Parliament.

Steve Darling MP (09:32.726)
Yes, yeah, definitely.

Can you give any examples of barriers that you have faced? And did you manage to overcome them? And if so, how?

I think probably the most obvious barriers that I have faced that are extremely frustrating is more when I'm out with my guide dog Jenny, where I have had the experience of booking to go to a restaurant in a hotel and then refusing me where I would like to sit because they said, we don't let pet dogs go there, even though it's the well lit side of that restaurant area.

in a hotel, whereas they wanted me to sit in the darker area where it's more of a challenge. that's one example. Taxis turning up to the Liberal Democrat Conference in Brighton. My wife and I both had, because both of us have got guide dogs, but they all fit in the footwell of a standard car. Both of us had two taxis refuse to convey our

our dogs and it is I was speaking to another guide dog owner who shares with me how he's ordered a taxi. He's on his own with his dog and he hears the vehicle pull up towards him and then drive off because they don't want to take him with a guide dog. So there are issues both with restaurants, taxis and to a certain extent hotels. So it's that challenge and then also.

Steve Darling MP (11:14.062)
it does result in some people with disabilities not wanting to go out because it does hit their confidence. So I'm only too alive to some of those challenges, but it is, you know, holding people to account and standing up and being counted, which I have done on historically other taxi refusals that I've experienced or equally that particular hotel. did end up, you know,

getting them to, you know, after we were refused, we did go down the legal route with them and we did end up getting satisfaction, I'll put it no more than that.

that's good. mean we have to stand up and make those challenges really don't

We do, we do, because otherwise I think the problem is as somebody with a disability it's easy to just turn the other cheek and get on, but then it does end up building up in your system that level of discrimination and it can result in people thinking I've got to stay at home because I can't face the challenge and I know of people where that is an issue.

Yes, absolutely.

Kevin Daws (12:31.022)
Steve, as a disabled person, what is the biggest barrier either facing you or disabled people generally that you would like the new government to take action on?

I it's partly one that I would say only over the last five months or so has has has come to to to fruition for me and this is the Department of Work and Pensions that I'm spokesman for. I'm only just too alive to how. Applications are not dealt with in a timely manner, whether it is for PIP, pensioner credit.

which then denudes people of additional support. But also I think the big one for me of helping people with disabilities is access to work. I know of people who are applying for jobs and have potentially had jobs withdrawn from them because access to work had taken too long to actually process their application, which I did raise with the minister that

only the last meeting with DWP with Sir Stephen Timms. and also I'm aware that somebody who advised me of their an application to which was an in-job one, Access to Work said it would take six months for them to be able to process it. So it is a broken system. However, the messaging I got from

Sir Stephen Timms last week at the DWP Select Committee causes me grave concern where he kind of gave messaging that they're likely to ask employers to take on more responsibility around access to work. And I fear that that is taking the wrong fork on the road of actually helping people into work.

Kevin Daws (14:32.618)
Yes, I would agree. I mean, on that point...

I personally find it a bit ironic that one hand the government are saying they won't get people off benefits into work and yet on the other hand the support they want to provide disabled people is something they want to cut or reduce in some way and it feels as though they're trying to have the cake and eat it and that it's disabled people and many disabled people do want the opportunity.

work but the government seems to be saying we're going to kick you rather than support you. don't you find that ironic?

It is, yeah, and I know we were reviewing the Department of Work and Pension questions recently, which happened a couple of weeks ago from this interview, and I'll just be slightly political here. So if you look at the questions from Conservative members, it's mostly around how are we going to force people back into work?

from the Labour backbenchers, it's more how can we help people into work. So whilst that may well be the Labour backbenchers views, I do fear that sometimes with the rhetoric that we have around fraud and benefit cheats that we hear from the government, it's more playing to the Labour gallery. Nobody, sorry, playing to the public gallery. So I think the crucial thing for me, the levels of...

Steve Darling MP (16:13.41)
benefit fraud are in reality very low. And so it's giving people a hand up into work rather than seeing it as a handout.

Absolutely. mean that actually leads quite nicely into the next question I was going to ask you Steve. Do you think that the British media and the British public have an open and positive attitude towards disability and disabled people and if not why not?

I would say that there can sometimes be a tabloid culture around, you know, heroic people who are disabled overcoming massive odds because they're over their disability and things like that, you know, we're just ordinary people who've got on and done things. you know, whilst it's nice to have a level of acknowledgement that it isn't as straightforward for the next person. So there are elements around that.

But then equally, I think that's why it's important that we do have a more inclusive approach when we're looking at getting people elected into positions of responsibility. So it does demonstrate that it isn't a shock that we've got somebody with a guide dog again in the House of Commons, that it should be seen as business as usual for our society. And it isn't a shock that there are people with quite pronounced disabilities who are.

members across the house and that should be really welcoming. It should be business as usual. So I think in a societal sense we do have a long way to go but equally I think it's the culture of our country that we need to reflect on and how we need to be more inclusive in facilitating rather than a blame led culture.

Kevin Daws (18:11.726)
Yes, and there is a lot of blaming negativity out there. Steve, earlier on you touched upon the social model of disability and I was going to ask you whether you'd heard of it, whether you agree with it. I mean, you were sort of saying broadly yes, but some variations on it or some reservations on it.

I think there's a level of truth to the social model. Sometimes society can put barriers in the way, but equally to say that it's a very purist approach. If you took the social model in a very purist way and said, you know, it's society that puts all the barriers in front of me and therefore, you know, people shouldn't see me as a

as having a disability because it's the barrier that and when you think of things like steps for wheelchair users and things like that and saying how that needs to designed out you can say yep that's extremely understandable but equally there are some challenges you know like it would be highly inappropriate for me to say actually I want to be able to drive myself everywhere in a car

and it's society's problem is like an extreme approach. you know, maybe with automation and, you know, technology will be in a place where I can jump into a pod and it will get me to places where I want to be. But I think it's having a common sense approach around that model.

is probably the way that I would look at it.

Kevin Daws (20:02.222)
Yes, I mean, I think there's lots of discussion around the social model, and I think Tom Shakespeare has raised a number of issues in his writings about that. On a slightly more topical point, at the moment, the assisted bill, dying bill, is receiving a lot of coverage in media. What is your opinion of the bill? Do you agree with it? Do you have any concerns?

Is it private members who build the best way or the correct way to change the law in such an important initiative?

Yeah, so I voted not necessarily for, yes, I'm all in favour of this. What I voted for when it came before Parliament for vote previously for the discussion to continue. Because I have an open mind. I haven't fully decided. I was extremely struck in the debate.

around the 600 people across the United Kingdom who commit suicide every year because they know that they are going to die a very painful death. And when you reflect on some of those people who might be killing themselves in their own homes or equally choosing to kill themselves by extreme violence, such as jumping in front of a train,

or off a tall building, the trauma that that causes for those who are left behind, whether they're family members or others, that's something that struck me quite deeply from the debate. Also, I've made it my business to go and meet with the local, I've made it my business to go and meet with the local, what are they called?

Steve Darling MP (22:07.886)
I know they're called Roecroft, but a hospice, sorry. Yeah, so I'll just start again. So I've made it my business to go and meet with the local hospice and hear both from directors of that service, but also the two senior consultants who help people in their last days of their lives. So I can hear an authentic voice of people who deal with this world. And that there are a couple of elements of this that struck me particularly, making sure that we have

adequate palliative care came out so people have real options that it is in the case of some of it, you know, it will be good and some of it will be bad. So actually funding hospices appropriately so that there is good palliative care so people have a genuine choice rather than a choice because of poor service came over very well. The additional element to that is actually

Is social care funded adequately? Because again, you're not, you're, you know, eight in our local hospice, 80 % of their clients are in the community. So receiving social care. So social care needs sorting and yet the government kicked that into the long grass of sorting that out. So again, that is of concern to me after the, you know, the local hospice were raising that. The other bit that is not.

clear within the bill and I need to go it's yet to come back for a third reading to Parliament is the hospice I visited were really keen that it was a separate service to them or the NHS or it was a subservice of the NHS that wasn't mainstream so that it was something that you would choose to go and engage with elsewhere rather than it being mainstream NHS and

potentially part of an offer that you would get from a hospice. So it's still going through, it's what they call the bill committee where they go through it line by line and potentially amend it. I know there's been this amendment around the court system and suggesting a panel might be an alternative route. I have an open mind on that, but again, I would, you know, to mix my metaphors on it,

Steve Darling MP (24:33.464)
The jury remains out for me because we don't know what the final proposals are going to be in the bill, but I have an open mind, but I have been educating myself around this world by trying to engage with people such as our local hospice, Roancroft in Torbay.

That's fantastic and I mean I don't doubt that it must be an extremely difficult issue to think about to do the research on. I mean one of the ironies and I saw a photograph of one of people I think they were in a protest outside Parliament where it basically sort of said the government will support me to die but they won't support me to live and I think some of the stuff you're talking about with palliative care and

other things you've been mentioning sort of echoes that little bit. this, and I don't make this sound grandiose, but I think this is probably one of the most important decisions the Parliament will make during this term, because it will have far reaching effects once it's happened.

No, it is. And I know they are the the argument is that we've tried to put as much on the face of the bill so the slippery slope argument can't apply. But equally, I think let's let's see what comes out of the bill committee stage and then we can work it out from there.

Absolutely. Steve, thank you for spending time to come in and talk to us this morning. Is there anything else you wish to share about your life experience as a disabled person?

Steve Darling MP (26:17.55)
I just reflect on what Chris McCosland was alluded to after he won strictly about having an opportunity as somebody with a disability, having a bit of support to get you over the line and then that determination. I think that's a bit of a mantra that I think is really useful for people with disabilities to be alive to.

because sadly you do have to work that bit extra to get things to happen for you than the next person. But it is having that determination and drive so that you can get there.

Thank you so much, Steve. Really appreciate you giving time to talk to us today.

Okay, thank you, all the best then. Bye, thanks.

Thank you.

Steve Darling MP (27:20.046)
tool.