#32 My Pizza, my choice - Michael Grimmett

Joining us this week is Michael Grimmett.

Michael might have Cerebral Palsy, but he is in charge of his life. Making a series of decisions along the way, some good and some, lets say not so good.

I only know the good ones though.

Michael rolls out some stories like his original transport method to work, the infamous Pizza in the rain, how he gets in to his local bar and why he doesn't know who Dave is.

There are lots of things Michael can celebrate, but he tells us a couple that aren't celebration worthy too.

I get Michaels views on UnHidden rocking London Fashion Week, Ableism in the Media and representation.

Michael can be found on LinkedIn: Michael Grimmett | LinkedIn

The challenge mentioned at the start of the show can be found using this link

In Sue's Name (insuesname.org.uk)

Voiceover for intro and outro by Jennie Eriksen | LinkedIn

Music granted free of charge very kindly by Music: https://www.purple-planet.com . The track is called Hope and Inspire.

Transcript

0:46

Welcome to the All 4 Inclusion Pod and I'm your host as normal, Scott Whitney. Today's episode is with Michael Grimmett. Now Michael found fame if that's the right word from from tucking into a slice of pizza, but we'll we'll come onto that in a moment. Before we do there are a couple of things I just want it to go over. So firstly on behalf of David. Taylor. David is doing a walk of hope to raise funds for brain tumor research which kills more young people under 40, then any other type of cancer. Which included his daughter Sue at the age of 42. Their challenge is to walk a hundred kilometers in 31 days. And in the show notes, there will be a link if you do wish to sponsor David. So we wish David all the best with his challenge there. Oh, so then coming into some feedback, we have some amazing feedback off the back of Carly Tait episode last week where we shared her talk from our December webinar, all around the topic of menopause and lived experience. So I asked people who else would be up for talking and sharing their lived experience on this. Lots of peopl Jeanette Siobhan Stephanie Kirstie, Stephanie Bev, Melanie, Denise, Katie Lindsey. Lisa Aline. Barbara all happy to to get involved and I'm sure there's other people out there as well. So we will get that going. I think the main thing is to just decide whether we do a separate podcast purely devoted to menopause. Which I think it's probably the likely way forward. Maybe a fortnightly episode that comes out or whether we integrate it into the All 4 Inclusion Pod. So if you've got an opinion on that, please let me know. And And yeah we'll work. we'll get on with this week show and and i'll get to to my conversation with Michael

Scott Whitney: 3:22

With me today is Mr. Michael Grimmett. So my pre podcast research on Michael is, he is the collector of many secondhand fish he's below average when it comes to a quiz doesn't like to to buy the first pint and he enjoys a pizza or two.

Michael Grimmett: 3:49

I do.

Scott Whitney: 3:51

So how many of those four statements are true, Michael?

Michael Grimmett: 3:54

Probably about a fair few of them. If not all of them saying your research is perfect pretty much.

Scott Whitney: 4:05

Perfect. So how would you describe Michael Grimmet?

Michael Grimmett: 4:09

I am a disabled person that campaigns for Equity and Equality in all for the past 15 years I've been advocating. Direct payments and personal health budget, which formed of social care and healthcare. And then last year I became famous cause I went viral on Twitter and then on the I became disability speaker slash trainer. So just for anybody that doesn't know I, I was filmed outside a restaurant, having a pizza in the rain, a really heavy rain storm, I didn't think it'd be that bad. And and on the back of that, and I was allowed through the company that I work for to train Prezo on how to improve access and equality. But it did embarrass them with, I, I did the video to demonstrate that there, there is still segregation today. I couldn't get into the restaurant because the ramp was too wide to the door and nobody thought to measure it. And and and yeah, so I did that just to, went on TV and yeah, and just went on from there. So way all, I've been to London with the great Isaac Harvey I've been to Harbor Event as well, just talking about my own personal experiences, whether there's a kind of collective viewpoint.

Scott Whitney: 5:55

So obviously I've not seen that video, but you've told me the the story before. And it's quite shocking that, you go and buy a ramp and don't even test it. So I'm not sure where they go with that, but aside pizza gate. How have you found any other sort of difficulties with places and what have you seen improve over the last few years?

Michael Grimmett: 6:16

When I was a young man, I'm 42. I to, when I young man, I used to go out and in trains you were either wheelchair using, you always put in the goods van at the back. There was no, no facility for you in where every else is. So I sat in with the bikes and the push chairs in the old back of the train on way to and from work. But now obviously, thankfully, there are accessible spaces between four several people, but it is just about making things more inclusive rather than just accessible. So that's what I always say to companies, you might have a ramp or you might have a bit of braille where you might have an easy read document somewhere, but that just the actual accessibility thing. I'm all about trying to make everything to coin it to your CIC more inclusive. But is the actual emotional experience the same for every that may come and visit your business or your hotel or whatever something one wants to get? So I have a little tiny example. There's a nice pub where I live, but the ramp that you have to go in around the, to back and then you have to buzz the door to get in and sometimes you sit there like buzzing 10 minutes and then you have to drive through past a Gordon Ramsey style Chef staff. But while I'm doing that, my, my friend, they're already at the bar and they're already getting the old points in. While they're waiting for me to work my way through the, through, through place. And then for, I've not had the same experience as what they've had. So is they, there's not inclusive. Had to go through emotional stress really, of sat there buzzing the door, ring my mate going, where are these people? And they have to, so that's what I always try and emphasize and I do my speaking or talking. It's you not just about accessibility, it is about the actual inclusiveness of the workplace.

Scott Whitney: 9:06

Yeah. And lot people say we want equality, but actually it's equity. We want we want the same journey, the same result as anyone else would get as often as possible. Because sometimes, yeah, it physically might not be possible. But then if you've got an open mind, you can try to still work. A business can still try to

Michael Grimmett: 9:31

work with it. Exactly. And I always say that, that the the actual equity of the business will lead to the equality of the actual experience. Two can work you hand in hand, can't they? So it is, so it's not and I always say that I always want to be treated equally. I know that always won't be put the actual, but I can be. And that is what we should want as people, is a chance to be treated.

Scott Whitney: 10:11

A lot of it's like, how would you want to be treated yourself? And some people go, will go too far and Yeah. And that can be worse at times.

Michael Grimmett: 10:25

Course. And they're also can appear a bit patronising two nights ago. And the and I still cringe now, but the server congratulated me cause I ate all my food going, no, you good boy. But they didn't too congratulate my, my friend, she felt left out, but but they did me. That is there kind of thing that, that we still have today? I should have given them a bit of back chat, but I was a bit under the influence. So I I was a bit too slow, but yeah. But it's just that kind of thing really, isn't it?

Scott Whitney: 11:05

Yeah. And sometimes you get a bit Shell shocked. And then you think, I wish I had that time again. I wish I could have given him a comment to say, well done. You managed to pick up the plate and the cutlery.

Michael Grimmett: 11:23

And you did it all by yourself, do I get to pat your head no!Yes, I know. It's no. No. I think we need to move away from that and I do blame the. I do go into certain charities for that cause we've created that as a society where we have to congratulate everything for doing something. And it's I call it Inspiration Porn, I was once congratulated just cause I chose my own birthday card at a card shop and she went to me. I want to say For reaching the did you congratulate him him and her today? Today they the same thing. What I've done, I'm in a wheelchair, doesn't mean that I'm, and she looked at me and I was once a bit off, off topic, but I want in a in a super market and. Yeah, check out person was for the staff, and she looked at me and she went, do you know Dave? I went, no. Why would I know Dave for, and she wouldn't. Then, she went, Dave is in a wheelchair too. Oh that's great. Yeah. Oh, do you know Sharon? She went, Sharon? No, I don't know Sharon. I went, Sharon looked blonde hair. So although I went, surely you know, Sharon, you both got blonde hair and the people behind me were absolutely fucking were laughter, but she didn't actually get it. We really, even, really even made it even funnier. But it is. But there is a it is a shame that we still have that even.

Scott Whitney: 13:13

If we're looking at progress, how can we speed progress up?

Michael Grimmett: 13:23

We just need a more. To tell people everywhere. Really, we need more in our parliaments, more in our, I just talking wheelchair users got, cause we only, we are only 5 to 8% of the actual disabled population and there not the people with hidden impairments. And when I do my speaking or training always say that I'm actually quite lucky. And your audience would do anything. What if you're talking about what, cause you can see my impairment or my disability, but hidden impairment there, there are instantaneously judged by society Cause they something that, but you quite see it. So are, I always feel we need to work a lot more on hidden impairments and like catering for people with impairments. And then also getting more people, more sales people in, in our jobs, in our dating apps, in our, not just the techy undatables you into now. Cause I've gotta quite stand it, not just that, but actually know you make it a bit. Prominent really? And then they all seem, I dunno the word normal, but it all seemed like everyday life, blah blah. Probably standing out, if

Scott Whitney: 14:57

I I went to the park with with Isabel, my youngest daughter this afternoon. And. She wanted to go on her scooter and she went to the skateboard bit. She's six. She, she did well, but I think my heart stopped a couple of times and we went into the actual park. But she had all her pads on and stuff like that, and as she was going in, A little boy was there on I think they're called balance bike, and as I went in, I heard him say something and then I heard his mom. Oh, it's actually a wheelchair. So I turned around and I like put my thumb up to him, spoke to him and she said, oh, he said, it looks like a thing with wheels. So I said to him, your bike's a thing with wheels as well. And had a little bit of interaction and then went into the part with Isabel because I. That child who might have been two three, that's probably the first time he's seen someone with a wheelchair. And I want it to be a good experience for him.

Michael Grimmett: 16:04

Yep, exactly. And that I always say to people, don't be scared to ask somebody if they are in a wheelchair or any impairment when they're young about it. when you, and if people are, and if parents are always, say them. Don't answer that, or don't say that and they go out, then they become more nervous and more fearful of say people, don't they? Yeah. But if you just, say it what it is, then it is, I wouldn't, it. Isn't it? It's just how it is

Scott Whitney: 16:44

and like fear is a learnt behavior, isn't it? So when you're young, yeah, you have no fear and then you start to learn to be

Michael Grimmett: 16:52

careful. So yeah, I would love to be young again Scott and have no fear. I'll be driving in my wheelchair without any fear and they were the best time to me, Scott, they. Mind you crashed two or three times, then you then know that I it is yeah, that how about it? But you need that experience. Yeah.

Scott Whitney: 17:17

So where do you sit on the whole language front? Because for me, I guess I'm learning words as people are as well, but yes, I think if anyone says anything to me, as long as it's said with the right intent. I'm quite happy. Yeah. I can correct them. But the intents more important than the word.

Michael Grimmett: 17:42

Yes. Fine enough. I actually do a lot about language when I do my speaking and on my my training and I also, the persons customer point of view. You use the person's name. I remember that. you might not be an expert, as a non disabled person, but I guarantee that most disabled people themselves are not experts either. So I always just say to people, just don't your age genuine. Yeah. Put it across in a way. And if you do get it wrong, then just you. Apologize. And then just learn from it. I always have debates with still people about the word cripple cause I do think that disabled people own that, that, that word. I totally get that. So we own that word, apparently it is. Okay. Person crippled, apparent. Personally, I think I wouldn't want it, I wouldn't want the somebody to shout it at me in the actual street. So therefore, if we are saying that I tell people that it's okay to use that word, then why can't non disabled people use it too. You can't have it. You can't have it both ways. You can't say to them and tell people, oh, you, you can't call them a cripple if we are using the language ourselves within our own community just cause of happening. We own the actual word. I person think it's, oh, I wouldn't say it's nonsense, but I don't understand it and I don't think I ever will, but that just, yeah, that just an example of language with the speaking and training that I do, I. I can to wait for hour, an hour about the history of the actual words. So when I go in into store, the I have a little handout when I say about the word cripple where it actually originated from so people know that the history of it, and not even many disabled people know, like where that word came from. So the word cripple comes from the second world war from the word creep and as begging orientations. And then, and it is similar to handicaps. So handicapped was a then American word and that was brought to up with people used to go cap in hand for their benefits. And that has always has. Begging connotations as well. So I just like to tell people about the actual history of the word and why. I don't feel personally comfortable, but obviously if other disabled people choose to use it and that's their own choice and it is all, they just find one of these quickly, all day depends on we were there about the word intent and. But not that person means any offense or not. So I've supported about 3000 odd sales people and older people in my career say was that a home visit once? And this older person asked me, genuinely, she went in a nice way, but it came out all wrong. And she went to me asking you a personal question. Whatever, how long have you been an invalid for now? Obviously that word is like cringy and bad today, but in her era it is like you It is just their language, isn't it? Older. The people, the other bare mind. The you saying it and yeah. Not you want to correct them or whether not Yeah. Is it really worth it? All kind of things. So I do think language really important in our society. You and I are wheelchair users, but we're not bound. We're not wheelchair bound. I'm not in any way. I'm not, me and my wheelchair, we have a very working relationship and I'm not bound to it. I just use it to get around and there's bit more. A positive language to use. I get onto trains and things, I quite often when the ramp round down he or she shall help careful. They will take on and say wheelchair coming through and I'm like I'll only call you and notebook pen. So yeah, they don't, it is all about language. It's all about like, how. Trying to use that language. Yeah,

Scott Whitney: 22:46

You mentioned 5 to 8% being disabled people being in a wheelchair. Yeah. So one of the things that I always think when it comes to. People with hidden disabilities, you're not naturally able to see the disability is how interesting or not in interesting might be the wrong word, but if you was to almost show the pain and the difficulties that, that the person goes, on a picture with bruises or arm in a sling, et cetera, and do the same with someone who is in a wheelchair or physically bound. People I think would look at it slightly differently because, yeah, not everyone who's in a wheelchair has, they might have more or less pain and more or less difficulties. Than the person with a hidden disability. But a lot of people don't see it

Michael Grimmett: 23:46

that way. No, and also what I say that I'm, that disability, all impairments can be intersection. You know what I mean by that either. Now I am a will, but you also say that I'm being, because somebody has one impairment doesn't mean they don't have another one is as well. I think we sometimes get a bit hung up about that as well. We get back to the hidden impairment thing. I, a lot more needs to be done around that and I always say to everybody and me, I say, alright, you've catered for me what Everybody else that. Get out and about, people with, send me impairment. I can listen, but I won't, I don't wanna miss any anybody out. But but I whole raft of hidden impairments that, so the, I just don't think people just don't understand that

Scott Whitney: 24:56

I stayed in a hotel earlier this year. Accessible room. First time I stayed in the hotel since I've been in the wheelchair. And Yeah, nice. I could spot things that needed improving and, put a post out. And the hotel and the people who designed the hotel got in contact with me and we had a nice little chat. It was they asked, at the end of the conversation, they said to me, have you got, we, we spoke about the room, what you liked about it, what you didn't like about it, about the hotel, what you liked about it, what you didn't like about, have you got anything? Anything else you'd like to say? And I said, yeah. I said I see a lot of accessible rooms, but what I don't see are a lot of sensory rooms. And they said, yep just not there. They said, actually, it's something we thought and I thought, it might be that the glass needs to be thicker or you're using. Bedding that doesn't have creases in or different things like that. The walls are a bit more soundproof or this, there's different things, but I think that's got to be the next kind of step for for the leisure industry in hotels, it is getting sensory friendly rooms.

Michael Grimmett: 26:13

Yeah. But I think, I've been in quite a lot of hotel. I think they did a standard a tip, didn't they? Then they like real thought about them. The best hotel room that I don't wanna go to anyone specifically, but the best hotel room that I've stayed in was in one in Bournemouth, we to the Marshall for a hotel. And they do I I have one accessible. But they order, have room to hoists in. And that thing, and I always say to companies if you give, put in the facilities, then disabled people, we'll what you, your impairment is sales people will go there. Now I feel there's a fallacy that. To say people are honest, poor, so they won't they're the attitudinal barrier of well, they won't get there anyway. Cause even if we put it in, then they won't be there. Come down. They won't wanna do it because you know they do. Why should, but I always say, if you put in the facility, then people will. Yeah, I give the example an activity, farming Wales. I won't give too many of those, but they're putting like training places for, they're put essentially facilities and they people travel down for Yeah. 50 or hundred miles just to go to that place just because they know that they've gotten the necessarily. They don't do facilities there. So it is proven that if you do cater for disabled people there, we will live inside all the time. And we don't really want do that anyway, yeah.

Scott Whitney: 28:22

Yeah. So a couple of things that have been going on recently. We had London Fashion Week last week. We. Unhidden, which is an accessible clothing brand there with a very diverse set of models including Isaac Harvey, who you mentioned earlier. Yep. One thing I noticed, Michael, is you're looking. Very suave today. Your hair's nice.

Michael Grimmett: 28:52

Thank you. You've got your knowledge. I thought I fought, I've been out with your filter on your zoom. Exactly.

Scott Whitney: 29:05

I just thought, was you not asked to model Michael?

Michael Grimmett: 29:08

Was you not? No, I haven't, no, I haven't got the old. I think Harvey or Sandy Roberts kind, raaz. I'm just a tracksuit and jumper man personally with the old trainers and that is how I, so I'm not really, I'm all for yeah, I'm like, I put admit that disabled people are taking part in things like that. I'm just No way am I any kind of fashionista. But I do think it is, I think it great shows society that you, we can take part in that. We can look the part as well be fair. Everybody in that own at London Fashion Week and the UnHidden, fashion brand did the. Yeah, called Dawn to be fair. So yeah, so I was like, oh, I might have to get home. I might have to get myself in your head. I don't think one of myself, you might have to jazz yourself up a bit. Am I? No, I'll always be seeking doing Zoom calls in my pajama out. But I do think, it, it kinda. People, what can be achieved as well. And not just very like people that aren't disabled, people are younger people who are, whatever their impairment is. To have Isaac, to have Sandie and whoever else doing that kind of thing to them that what can be achieved. And I think that's good Dave as well, obviously. When you are a younger person with impairment it'd good to have something to not for the not to look up to, but just inspires you really

Scott Whitney: 31:04

and I think I think Victoria Jenkins obviously, who's. Is the brain behind un hidden. Did a, did an amazing job of keeping it really 360. So I know she had Kathryn Paylor Bent was helping in the background with some bits. Like we said, all the models had a disability. There was a mixture of diversity when it comes to to race and religion there. We had people with hidden disabilities and it was great seeing all the photos. They all looked. I was gonna say, they all looked professional. You know what if me, or you did it, Michael, we would go down on our, in our wheelchairs, probably bumping against each other, or we'd just, we'd take someone out in the crowd because we're trying

Michael Grimmett: 31:55

to, I wouldn't quite do the right pose that I had photo done for I a nightmare. I area the shut my eyes can help. I can help it. So I'll be nightmare. Nightmare. I can't keep my eyes open. Take a photo and shut Full temper. Will you open your eyes?

Scott Whitney: 32:27

Needs to say click so you'll close your eyes and then he wait for you to open

Michael Grimmett: 32:31

it quickly. So no. So no. So I have, I think it great that I wanna say it's for disabked people I don't want them in our situation, but I think they're having that. Yeah, it can be warm myself, people and on self people is great. So yeah,

Scott Whitney: 32:56

The clothes look the part and then with the sleeves where you can zip them up to, to be able to have you needed blood taken, et cetera, yeah. But yeah, I thought that was There was some really good press and good coverage around that. But talking about the press scene as well a little clip before we come on. Saying the media regulators must create guidelines for reporting around disability. If not, media will never be less ableist. Where do you stand on that? On something like that, Michael?

Michael Grimmett: 33:30

I think only till recently as society become more aware of the word ableist, so it been, it'd been around know since I was a young man. But I think that it becoming more and more to the fore, and that is because. We've got more disabled people now in our media, whether you agree with her or not at another topic on that now, but the fact that she is disabled person, that is, quite prominent in the world and I think that does help with that. But unfortunately anything to remove ableism in any way. Good. And I think the media, some of it could, I don't really think they do it on purpose. I think it's about education, isn't it? Of course, yep. I had no argument with my local people. The way they covered my story would be eating a pizza in the rain. I just thought it was a, it was that I suffered from doing it and that, and then, and the words where I was stranded in the rain. Oh no. I had a, I had a. I chose to do that. I did it for a reason. I thought it insulted my intelligence, so I got ahold of the journalist, actually gave him happened me, but I, yeah, that is just insult my intelligence to me first and say, oh, what were the background to the story of. Why you do it. And I really, I told you that I was more capable of making that the decision and also that when people were, what was my personal assistant doing? Letting me you be in the rain, think that's incredibly you. To be pointed, that's taken away my choice to do what I want. You think it's a bad choice That, or a good choice That is never debate yeah, so I do think it would help, and I would say to something that I'm, I don't see myself disabled. I'm just impaired. I'm only disabled by the environment around me. And if the around me was, top not ramped full on inclusion, the. If we were full on inclusion everywhere, I wouldn't disabled, but I would still be impaired. I, am I amm impaired? That's a factual statement. But I'm not disabled. I'm only disabled because society allow to be.

Scott Whitney: 36:47

Finally, next week I've got on the podcast next week on the All 4 Inclusion Pod we have Will Dean Will's main character in his series of books. The main character is a journalist. She's deaf. She's called Tuva Moodyson. And wh what's your kind of view when it comes to, disabled people on TV or in books or in films? Do we see enough? Is there not enough? Are they portraying the right characters?

Michael Grimmett: 37:20

I remember when Brian Cranton played adisabled person and he breaking bad and Your Honor, just in case, and we didn't know who he. and he started in a film about a, how about a paralyzed man that I hired and an ex, should you say an ex defender as his pa And I, and there was no, with people saying they should have been person playing that. I think it would've been brilliant to see that. Got on the other hand, like unfortunately there's and it is sad, but there's no disabled actors. I think there should be more encouragement and that would in increase people with awareness of all impairments, not just world change.

Scott Whitney: 38:31

You mentioned Breaking Bad and Brian Cranston's son RJ is up is RJ Mitte and he's got Cerebral palsy. So yeah that's good to see an actor there having that role. And I think you need to see those actors there. Or actresses. People will then look up at people like RJ Mitt or people like Rosie Jones and Alex Brooker and different disabled people in high profile. And then from that's where I think we'll then get those people who will try to leap from them to and then become the

Michael Grimmett: 39:11

prominent stars. Yep. I hope they do. I hope you get not just that more people put in Parliament and more so people age, I top jobs who you saying, I'd like to see a prominent charity about naming one. That's probably quite near to my own impairment group. Have a disabled person in the top of their management F then I totally think that you any speech about certain impairment, if you got people within your within that have lived experience or blood impairments, To me as their person, you can seem a little bit tick boxy kind of thing. But that's only my own opinion, but yeah.

Scott Whitney: 40:10

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think, I always look at kind of employment and think. talent is always gonna be talent. And then you've got potential talent as well. But you need to have it across the whole kind of border because you want people who are gonna resonate with your customers or your customers will also be disabled people. So you need people who are gonna be able to understand and resonate with with them as well.

Michael Grimmett: 40:37

Yeah. Yeah. That is right. That is that the what? What is needed in our generals society today, really. Yeah,

Scott Whitney: 40:45

just perfect. Michael, it's been absolutely great speaking you tonight.

Michael Grimmett: 40:52

Thank giving opportunity.

40:55

So everybody not walls, molecule, group mates. Loved to. I'd love to know. Your thoughts on on the conversation with Michael. Prerecording Michael said. Said he was going to, it was going to behave and he did behave on the podcast. For those that know, Michael. Outside of outside of work. He's a real joker. Real character, a laugh a minute. Type of person. So he wanted to make sure he's points. I came across. Clearly on the show. So yeah, I'd love to. Love to know your feedback on that. Now. Full goes to plan. Next week's podcast is with. An author cool. Will Dean. Who writes the Tuva moodyson season series? So looking forward to. To accord in that in just a couple of days, time. And and obviously you'll hear that. Next Wednesday. So thank you for listening. I love feedback on any social media channels or you can even email me Scott@allforinclusion.org. And. Yeah. Speak to you in a week.