#13 Shouldn't almost dying hurt more with Unhidden founder Victoria

When Victoria ignores and walks in to A&E she didn't know how her life would change.

Recovering on a ward was the moment her Universal Clothing brand Unhidden was born.

This podcast tells the story of Unhidden, Victoria's own health conditions which have left her disabled and sharing lots of helpful tips along the way.

This not to be missed episode with Sustainable Adaptive Fashion Brand - Unhidden Clothing founder Victoria Jenkins | LinkedIn

Visit our website at Home - All 4 Inclusion 

Voiceover for intro and outro by Jennie Eriksen | LinkedIn

Music granted free of charge very kindly by Music: https://www.purple-planet.com . The track is called Hope and Inspire.

Transcript

Scott Whitney: 0:48

Welcome, everybody to the next episode of The All4Inclusion Pod. My name is Scott Whitney, and I am joined by Victoria Jenkins. How're you doing Victoria?

Victoria Jenkins: 1:00

Good. Thanks. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Scott Whitney: 1:03

Excellent. So, Victoria, you're the founder of a fashion brand called Unhidden. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about it, please?

Victoria Jenkins: 1:16

Well, I'll try and do the short version, do the elevator pitch. So Unhidden is a socially responsible Universal Design fashion brand, with a focus on people with disabilities. But through Universal Interface Design, which means anyone can wear it. The range is very small, it's got 10 pieces all together, I'm actually going to remove gender from it, because I don't really believe that's relevant, frankly. So I've got, I have got five men's and five women's pieces, but that's just going to become the range. And they answer a number of different access needs, different disabilities, there are seated trousers, which are obviously very specific to wheelchair users. But the rest of the range can be worn by anybody. If you don't need the adaptations, then fine. You're just wearing something that's made from deadstock fabric, which means it's surplus fabrics. I'm just using what already exists in a bid to be sustainable. I try and steer away from the word sustainable, because it's so overused in the fashion industry. And I say socially responsible, because it's not just it's about the entire supply chain. So you know, the garment workers. You know, I will never work with a sweatshop which will I'm sure we'll come to why the prices are what they are currently. So yeah, that's I think that's a terrible nutshell. That's not very brief.

Scott Whitney: 2:35

No worries, no worries. And yeah, I mean, I was having a look on your website, just before we came on. And it's, it's very easy to kind of move between, like you said at the moment that the two genders but obviously, you want to want to remove that. And a lot of the items when you look at it can be worn by anyone

Victoria Jenkins: 3:02

Exactly. And, you know, I think for example, the women's have a wrap function, but there's no reason why the men you know, men can't wear that or you know, non binary however you define yourself. Because the back waist bands on all of them are elasticated, and they all have the same essential features built into all of them. You can mix and match what you need, depending on just how you like to dress.

Scott Whitney: 3:27

Actually, that's one thing when I was looking at the that section while I saw that wrapping up, wrapped up, and I thought whoa, I wonder if there's one in the men's and then it was time to come on the call. So I didn't have a chance to have a look. Okay, so can you tell us a little bit of about where Unhidden came from.

Victoria Jenkins: 3:46

So Unhidden came from, I mean, I studied fashion design have worked in the industry as a garment technologist, which is like a clothing engineer for 14 years. But UnHidden came from well, in 2012, I, after years of a bit of medical gaslighting had an undiagnosed also that burst in my stomach a little bit of life saving surgery later. And then multiple other bits of me removed and rewired and things diagnosed and what have you. So it wasn't until that was 2012. So it wasn't until 2016 I was in hospital with a fellow patient who knew that I was working in fashion and we just struck up a conversation and she'd gone through cancer but was left with a number of other conditions as cancer patients tend to be. She couldn't dress you know, how she wanted, she couldn't dress how she wanted to at home for her job in the hospital. Just generally, you know, she was uncomfortable and she invariably had to take everything off. And I just thought at the time I you know, this seems so obvious. I was convinced I said that somebody will be doing this like now you've said it. Of course there's this need for access to your body or different ways of getting dressed like somebody must be doing this. It was very, very limited in 2016. I wouldn't say in the UK. Unfortunately, it's not progressed much beyond that. But that's where it came from essentially was sort of that light bulb moment in hospital, went back to work. And the idea didn't leave so I decided right I'll quit ultimately, what was my dream job, I'll quit and I'll start on Unhidden and go freelance, but then I got too busy freelancing. So not an awful lot really moved forward and apart from you know, endless designing and researching in my own time, but I didn't really progress anything until lock down and 2020 and suddenly freelance clients dried up and I thought right well, let's let's go for it and see what happens and it's been quite a journey.

Scott Whitney: 5:40

Excellent, excellent. So obviously lock downs, tough times for absolutely, everyone. So how tough was it for you starting a business in lockdown? And what was your biggest challenges?

Victoria Jenkins: 5:55

Oh, well, this is the terrible truth is, I found it a bit of a gift, when, you know the sort of the constant pressure to go out and see friends, family go out to work meetings, all the rest of it. When that was removed, I had obviously I couldn't physically wasn't allowed to leave the house. I had way more energy, so much more time, because of that increased energy because I wasn't, you know, over exhausting myself all the time. So yeah, it wasn't. And also because I've been working for myself anyway, it wasn't that big, you know, obviously, I would actually go out to meetings, but it wasn't that big. It was a bit weird having my partner under my feet all the time, but it wasn't. It wasn't that different for me, really. And I thought, you know, what, at the end of the day, why not? You know, it's, it's now or never, and I might not have this gift of time again. It obviously has come with challenges. And I think, you know, there's no denying the one of the biggest ones is, you know, the pandemic decimated the community, you know, 60% of people who died from COVID had a disability. So whilst also it being a mass disabling event as well. So, you know, it's kind of a weird combination of things. But yeah, it was, it's a gamble to launch that, sort of, for this particular market. But I thought, you know, we're all at home anyway. And representation, if nothing else, it's at least to fight for that. So while I haven't done a great job on sales, I think in terms of representation in the fashion industry, I've done, you know, I feel it never feels like enough, but I feel like I've done a fair bit to move the conversation along.

Scott Whitney: 7:32

Yeah, no, I definitely think I definitely think you have some of the pictures and articles and things that are that I've seen. So what's been the most enjoyable moment, with unhidden

Victoria Jenkins: 7:46

I always come back to the first shoot, really, because that was the first time seeing people wearing the designs and seeing you know, people my own age outside of a hospital setting on a fashion shoot, you know, that I'd coordinated that was, it was just a we're all great friends now. I mean, we have a WhatsApp group and everything, we're all still, we're still in touch. And it was it was just seeing that kind of that penny drop moment for other people of someone cares, someone's done this, no, maybe, maybe more, more people will come from it. And some of them have gone on to model for other brands and go off you know, it's given them confidence in ways that I hadn't even sort of factored in, really. So that you know, there's that I won't deny like the first pitching enterprise nations female StartUp Award in last October, whilst one of the scariest things I had done at the time. Yeah, walking up on a stage and then having my name called out as sort of being the winner. That was a pretty, that was pretty good moment. I was on my own. Like, I didn't have anybody with me, so like, a bit anti climatic, then getting on a train and coming home on my own being like, Oh, I've got all this stuff. But yeah, that was that was pretty awesome. And the runway, you know, the runway show in February with Sandra Bullock was seeing things go down a runway was, you know, a really nice moment because it wasn't something I ever thought I would do.

Scott Whitney: 9:08

And what was the reaction from people watching? When people was going down the runway, in UnHiddens clothes?

Victoria Jenkins: 9:17

Mostly bafflement. I think some people could I think they, I think they thought that you know, the models. Here we are, that was the point of the brand. But you know, looking at the range, obviously, its shirts and trousers. So if you, if you put that next to a bunch of really creative fashion designers, it looks, you know, very simple. So I've realised now if I do well, what we're saying, if when I do my next catwalk event, I would probably have and it would help to be fair, it would help participants or audience members, I will describe what the clothes do, because I think that's what the differences you can't see what I've done to make them adaptive. Yeah, well don't even notice. So they just think, you know, someone's designed a load of shirts and trousers and sorry, don't know is already exist. Yeah. So yeah, so I think that's, you know, and obviously, the first range was always going to be smaller captcha, like September, I'm looking forward to bringing in some much more extravagant pieces of design and the occasionwear and expanding the range just generally across the board.

Scott Whitney: 10:14

Excellent. Excellent. And, you spoke about your incident with the also in your stomach. So when did when did that sort of come about and how old was you at the time?

Victoria Jenkins: 10:30

So I well, I was I just graduated. So I was round about 23. I was 23. When I would say I've never been I wouldn't say I'd ever been a particularly well child. I remember having a lot of trouble with bloating and gas and so on growing up. But yeah, in my early 20s, it was worse. I was going in and out of the doctor's various hospitals a lot of the time. Unfortunately, the response was, You're too young for it to be anything, you're female, it's probably related to your period. Oh, working fashion is probably stress. Or, you know, or how is your relationship with your boyfriend, there was not very much investigative sort of, you know, which is obviously a very long conversation in itself. But yeah, so I mean, it was to such a point, though, that when it did burst I was 26. I have therefore developed quite a high tolerance for pain. I always assumed, you know, it would if it was, if it was really bad, and it was, you know, I was maybe going to die, it would hurt more, don't get me wrong, it hurt a lot. Instead of doing a sensible thing, because I think I've noticed the pain on the Thursday night, or Wednesday night, Thursday night. I felt so awful the Friday morning, I thought you know what I'll do, I'll put on six inch heels, my favourite jeans, I'll go to work really dressed up. That'll help me feel better. And I remember sitting down and one of my friends are looking at me and saying, Should you be here? And I was like, well, well, what else am I going to do? And she was like, Should you go see a doctor? Like what they're gonna say? Well, they always say, so what's the what's the point. And I was meant to go out with friends on a Friday evening, and I cancelled and went home early, because it was Mother's Day on Sunday. So got home, had a lovely dinner with my family on the Friday night, went to bed. And sort of thought, Okay, this, this feels quite bad. I think. I think I might need a bit of help. But I still text my mum at about 630 in the morning, because she was in the room below. And she said, I think we need to go to the hospital, actually. But I want to have a shower. Yeah, she came thundering up the stairs. And she was like, I knew you needed to go. So we went and I because I walked in, you know, the staff were relatively slow to start as well. It wasn't until, you know, they sort of said, well, we'll do an x ray view sort of upright, you know, your abdomen. And I just saw people run out of the room. And I thought, oh, there must be an emergency somewhere else idea. And then I was the emergency and I was like, oh. And yeah, the surgeon afterwards sort of sat on my bed and said, I don't know how I don't know how you went almost 48 hours with a burst stomach. You know, you shouldn't have you shouldn't have been able to survive that, frankly. But it was, you know, it wasn't until we got home from the hospital that my mom said or when they when they wheeled you down. They said it was 50 / 50 whether you were coming back up, you know what they were going to find? So I was obviously very lucky in many respects. But I still went from that to Okay, well, that was the thing that's always been wrong. That's happened now we'll get better. And that's not quite what happened. You know, it was I well, I have a paralysed stomach. I had a diseased gallbladder which is gone. I've had my stomach rerouted. So I have an extra internal pouch, like from my intestine to my stomach to help it empty. Had my appendix out, there's lots of me, that sort of stuck together. I've had adhesions, and also you know, there's lots and lots of things have gone on in there. So I sort of I think by 2016, I was sort of accepted that I wasn't going to get better. But I still don't think I really was using I wasn't applying the word disabled to myself, though, that took that took a bit longer, I think to sort of accept, and that's because of, you know, our all of our experience with disabled being a bad word.

Scott Whitney: 14:20

Yeah. Yeah. And that was going to be the question I was going to ask, you know, why didn't you use the term disabled? And do you think now if you, if you could go back in time, you would do you would class yourself as disabled then?

Victoria Jenkins: 14:35

Yes, I think I would have Yeah, I think I would have I think the problem is, you know, no doctor suddenly rings you up and says, Well, you're disabled. Especially, you know, when I don't present, you know, I don't look, we're not there, that really means anything. But especially when it comes to sort of, I would say the older male doctors, if you don't look sick, you're not sick. So, yeah, and I think it would have it was fighting it as well, it was thinking that I didn't qualify, because, you know, I wasn't that or this or this other condition, or you know, that whole other people have it worse. But I think actually, the best thing has been finding, you know, sort of an online community and speaking to other people, and just reading other people's experiences and realising Well, yeah, it does impact me everyday. You know, I've lost friends, I've lost jobs. I've lost time with people that I wanted to have, you know, I've missed out on events and that's, you know, it's something that's built into every day whether you know, you saw it we just take you just do it as it comes in as you lose a bit more and a bit more. And it doesn't until you look back and you go well, I used to go out, you know, every single night of the week work a whole five days a week, go out all weekend and just, you know, just do that. And now the thought of it makes me very tired. But it's also it will be absolutely impossible. I'm flat out not capable of it.

Scott Whitney: 15:57

Yeah. So, I mean, I know you touched about, you know, there's no doctor says you are now disabled. And I, when I was going through my process, I was asked, you know, am I now classed as disabled? And there's that kind of period where people won't say yes or no. I mean, I've now got a blue badge and a bus pass and things like that. So it's quite easy to say yes. But there was a there was a period where people were saying, Well, you might be you might not be. So it's hard to kind of know, and you don't want to use the term, necessarily, if you're not. Yeah, one thing that I did want to sort of pick up on you should, during it, obviously, you've lost work and different things like that. But you also lost friends with with your

Victoria Jenkins: 16:53

Yeah. I mean, I do completely understand it. disability. And it's, funnily enough, it's something I'm finding a parallel between becoming disabled, or being a small business owner, some people don't stick around. And that's it. You know, I think people obviously people change and your priorities shift. I think there's no denying, I cancel a lot on a lot of people. I know, that's, you know, a lot of people that do that. It's never a problem with my fellow disabled friends. You know, also, I can't do it even five minutes before you'll do somewhere, everybody, you know, everyone just gets it. And I think people that aren't in that space, it's just a struggle. And I think they see, you know, if they see out with somebody else on another day, that will, why couldn't they hang out with me on this day? Well, so and I, I completely, I do understand it. And it's something I wish I could change, but it is what it is at the end of the day. So it's, it's sad, and it's certainly something I think there should be more of a conversation around. Because you know, that in itself, it is very isolating, you feel isolated anyway, because you're stuck at home, feeling rubbish, you know, for example, and it's you can't go out, you know, it's not, your friends aren't always going to come around, that's the thing I really noticed is with each hospital admission, the amount of people that actually come to visit you gets less and less, because she's always there. We don't we don't need to go and see any like, well, actually, this far down the line, I really bought rather than worried that company would be lovely. Whereas before I was scared and panicked and didn't want to see anybody. Yeah. So yeah, it's just one of those things. And it's a tough one to accept, and it's especially im finding. Like I said, I'm finding now with being a small business owner, it's kind of the same, you know, you I go out pretty much only if it's related to work, which doesn't go down very well with people that don't have a small business and certainly people that, you know, I'd cancel on quite a lot anyway, as well. So it's, it's hard. And I think it's a case of you know, other small business owners also understand, you know, Work comes first, it's your baby, you don't, you know, it's it's what gets you out of bed in the morning or not. Sometimes I work from bed to you know, just depends on. But yeah, it's it's a tough one. And I there's not a huge amount of support for that. I don't think you know, you can't suddenly magic new people into your life. Apart from online, I would say that, you know, it's been the one thing that even pre COVID had been sort of a delight to me was I know, everyone likes to demonise social media. And don't get me wrong. There are obviously terrible pockets of it. But it's also been one of the best sources of friendship. I'm starting to meet people in real life that I've been speaking to, you know, in other countries for, you know, two, three years, and I think that's something really magical.

Scott Whitney: 19:30

Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. It definitely is. How does. How do you sort of cope with fatigue? Is that an issue for you?

Victoria Jenkins: 19:38

Yes. Well, I don't always do the best around it. I'm certainly I would say I'm trying. So I try and say Wednesday's a rest days. So I don't, I obviously do look at emails, but I try and say that I don't, and I won't respond to anything. And I don't book calls in for Wednesdays, my email signature, I sort of said, you know, working hours are 10 to five. And I don't work Wednesdays, so I try and sort of build it in. But the problem is, you know, if I can't sleep, I'll be like, you know, I'll just send this email and it's one o'clock in the morning. The amount of people I've had insomnia chats with, were all just like, we can't sleep we just, we just have a zoom. And my poor boyfriend I've had to let I can't actually have conversations late at night because of talk too loud. So we just have furious typing messages instead at random times. So yeah, it's hard and it's I have had to as things have opened up and obviously people want to have in person meetings or, you know, speaking events in our in person. It just means that you know, the thing that has I've lost his social life essentially. That's the thing that had to give you know, as zoom calls I know everyone's bored Have them but you know, having a glass of wine over zoom with a friend, for me was still great. And it still is a great option because the pressure on me to go out. And it's, you know, the energy to get there the energy to come home while you're out. And the expense of it at the end of the day, you know, it's, it's a pricey time to be alive. Yeah, it's hard to manage energy, especially when I think I have so many exciting things going on, and my brain doesn't necessarily Shut up. So I'm just kind of in that phase of constantly tired without ever really getting the sleep I need.

Scott Whitney: 21:18

Yeah, yeah. I can appreciate some of that for sure. So, if we wish to kind of look back at less constraints on your health? First of all, what, what one piece of advice would you would you give to someone who's going through either similar to you, or, or anything, really,

Victoria Jenkins: 21:46

I think, first and foremost, you know, don't give up. It's not all in your head. But the favourite bit of advice that I can't remember, I saw it from somebody else. And now I tell everybody, and I've used it and it works, is if you see a doctor and you know, your sure, no one knows your own body like yourself. But if you know, they don't want to do anything, just say, Okay, I want you to write on your notes that you've chosen to take no action. Yeah, I'll tell you not a single doctor wants to write that on paperwork. Like they won't. So they will organise that test, they will do a referral. And that was, you know, I've had some terrible consultants that were awful. So that and that really helped, you know, and I think, you know, I think it sort of reminds them that you are a human with a, you know, an opinion on what happens as well. And I think this kind of, I do, I mean, don't get me wrong, I feel for GPS, because how on earth they can manage to diagnose all sorts of things across every single person that walks into their surgery nightmare. But, you know, that said, if you've got a patient that keeps coming back, there's clearly something happening. And I think the old it's all in your head sort of rhetoric hasn't really helped. So advocating for yourself and taking somebody with you. If you're not, you know, if you've not, it's hard to it's really hard to take stuff in, I used to struggle to remember exactly what had been said, when they maybe just dropped, you know, a condition name or a symptom, or you know, okay, so we're gonna start booking in surgery. And in my head, I've just got alarm bells ringing and I'm not listening to the next five minutes worth of chat. So it's really helpful to have somebody with you.

Scott Whitney: 23:15

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I'm, I'm really lucky my GP is, is awesome, hedropped a letter up for me at quarter to 10 at night. And he does a lot of these calls to me after the surgery is shut just so then there's no sort of time limit no pressure. So I'm very lucky on that. My consultant. However, he's probably the opposite. But that's another story. Okay, and then, what about tips for someone starting a business?

Victoria Jenkins: 23:50

Oh, gosh, I mean, I usually say just start, but that's actually not very helpful. I think knowing your market and like, you've got to have passion for it. If you know if you're gonna eat, sleep and breathe it, if you don't care about it enough, it's very difficult to convince other people to care about it. So I think you know, this kind of these make money, quick sort of scheme ideas, they very rarely actually work. And would be a waste of time. I think the other thing is to get, you know, start networking, before you even have, you know, even a business name. You know, I've been on I was on heaps, of course, I'd say, Well, I've had this idea, but I haven't really done anything with it. And people remember and they sort of it sparks a conversation. Or maybe they said we when you're at this stage or you're looking to do XYZ, get back in touch. I have done very well just through signing up to enterprise nation, which is free, and their resources are incredible through them. I met Sook and now through Sook, I've got a tech investor. You know, it's it's all really, you know, it is helpful. I think the other thing is, there's no, you know, you have to look at the finances. And I'm trying really hard with multiple different banks at the moment to have a conversation with them about how they need to work on something different for us. Because, you know, I can't, I need a very small amount of technically very small amount of money right now just to get stock made. But I can't get a bank loan because an UnHidden has not been trading long enough. And me personally hasn't had an income over the last two years. So they're not going to give me a loan. Yeah, therefore, I have no option, you know, and it's not like I have savings, either. And then on top of that, you know, you factor in, if you're on either Universal Credit or you're on benefits, and you can't suddenly have, you know, an influx of money, either and it impacts all of that. So I think there's, you know, really big, practical steps needs to be taken. But they are really responsive, especially if you call them out about it. So I think you know, any, anyone who's got a business idea and they're disabled, I think If you've got to have a flat out, look at the finances and how you plan to fund it. But that doesn't mean you can't also start doing all the other things like registering a domain name, registering with Companies House, starting a social media community, you know, like all of those things, they're all little steps that you will have to do anyway. So just do this, you know, just just start. And it sort of, there's no, you know, there isn't a checklist and the more small business owners that I meet, we are all making it up as we go along. It's, it's no one, no one's been like, Okay, check. You've done this. Now you can do this check. Now you can do this. Like, it's just, you know, time has changed. The pandemic changed everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Whitney: 26:24

I got a friend who does a podcast on on founders. And a lot of the people that speak talk about all the books that they read, and they use them as manuals as they go. I'm so pleased that you said, we make it up if you go along. Because

Victoria Jenkins: 26:43

there are great books out there. Don't get me wrong, but I didn't read a book on how to run a business at all, at any point.

Scott Whitney: 26:48

I think there's a lot of great books about how businesses and things like that sat on my bookshelf on read. Essentially, I might get, but they just, they're just there at the minute. Just one last thing before we before we finish. I mean, have you just got any just advice in general, or sort of tips or any last kind of thing you want to want to say?

Victoria Jenkins: 27:22

Gosh, I think there's something I've been thinking about this more and more, because obviously, as you're obviously within Unhidden, what I'm trying to do is let's face it, sell adaptive clothing, but I'm also trying to make other brands think about inclusive design and the disabled community. And I think we've all sort of we've been conditioned to not ask. So I think especially recently, I don't know if you've seen Lucy Dawson has gone through his whole thing with a clothing brand where they casually used her for a campaign and then run an event juggling Vitor because it wasn't accessible, and then deleted everyone who complained about it, their comments on their Instagram and Twitter feeds. Not great behaviour. But I think that it's the now you know, if there's a brand that you like that you shopped at that you want to represent you that you want to design for you keep on it them, like email them comment on every single social media post, they have, like we have got power. The more we shout, the more that though they will hit and the quicker things will happen. I think it's a disgrace in 2022, that, you know, I'm the first adaptive brand to join the British Fashion council that should you know, I'm proud of that. But that shouldn't be the case. And I think, you know, the industry is got a lot to answer for but for it to it's it's not got the same sort of time to catch up as I think it has tried to do with plus size. And I don't like using that phrase, either. Because I think it's ridiculous. Because it shouldn't be a thing it should, or you should already be making clothes for every single size. There's one pinion on that. So yeah, they're out of time. And I think that you know, the the adaptive designers exist to work with and collaborate with whilst you then send your existing designers, or maybe a course teaching them how to do this. And a lot of it's not even very hard, they probably already have parts in their range that are adaptive. So yeah, my biggest thing would be just keep on at Brands keep on at companies. And you know, the check the changes coming is horribly delayed, and it's still miles away from where it needs to be. But you know, there's myself and Kat from seated. So anyone who has been a guest on here before, she's absolutely fantastic. And there's Shemaiah Juhi, who's got a short stature range. There's Emma, who has Kintsugi, who launched in 2018. You know, there are a few UK brands, there's more of a there's Karen from Belize. Now I've started naming people for everyone that I don't say, but there are brands there and they really care and they're ready to speak to existing brands, you know, to use their the lived experience, but also their design experience. So, yeah, yeah, it's happening. But yeah, keep the pressure on.

Scott Whitney: 29:54

Excellent, excellent advice. I guess as I said, as we're as we're just wrapping up, I guess what I'm going to be doing is keeping an eye on your website. Yeah, there are things on there personally, which which I think I will be be buying for myself. So next time we see each other I might be sat here worrying, none hidden t shirt. And then will I be getting the awful inclusion pod flashing up along the middle of the website? Wow, the BBC and all the other places that you featured because you featured in quite a few big big places.

Victoria Jenkins: 30:36

Yes, yeah. It's been breathtaking. And I'm you know, I'm waiting for my my TED Talk to go live. That was yeah, that was an experience. And there's a lot more happening. This year as well, like I said, there is the expansion to the range. There is kids. We're coming. Some very exciting licencing deals. And I'm in June fashion week I'm doing a collaboration with style for stroke. So it's not going to be a runway show, but September, big plans, big plans for September and I'm even going to the States in September for their fashion week. So

Scott Whitney: 31:06

Oh, excellent. So a case of looking at across the pond. Watch this space. Yeah. Excellent. Well, when the when the podcast comes out, in the show notes, there will be links to on hidden and if the TED talk is out, then which I think it probably should be. Links will be in there as well for that. Awesome. Brilliant. So thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Victoria for for coming on. It's been absolutely amazing chatting with you tonight.

Victoria Jenkins: 31:35

It's flown by I've just in the time have gone. Oh, yeah, exactly. I could talk a lot.

Scott Whitney: 31:43

So, like so thank you very much for listening. And yeah, goodbye.