#27 How to be an Ally

An interview with Alex Winstanley from Happy Smiles Training CIC.

Alex is CEO and Founder of Happy Smiles, an author of children's books, Shaw Trust Power 100 representative and close friend to Hayden.

He is a great a11y for the disability community, he shares tips on how to be a great ally and who you want to align yourselves with.

(1) Alex Winstanley | LinkedIn

Inclusion and Diversity Training for Schools, Business & Community (happysmilestraining.co.uk)

Voiceover for intro and outro by Jennie Eriksen | LinkedIn

Music granted free of charge very kindly by Music: https://www.purple-planet.com . The track is called Hope and Inspire.

Transcript

Scott Whitney: 0:46

Welcome to our next edition of the All4Inclusion Pod. This podcast is going to be titled How To Be An Ally. So joining me, I have an author, a Shaw Trust Disability Power 100 List representative by co-founding and being the managing director of Happy Smiles Training CIC Alex Winstanley. Alex, how are you?

Alex Winstanley: 1:14

I'm good. Thanks Scott. Really lovely to speak to. I'm really honoured

Scott Whitney: 1:19

Did I pronounce your surname right?

Alex Winstanley: 1:20

That's right. Yeah. It doesn't, I it's funny people pronounce it, Win Stanley. Yeah, I think my dad used to say it's Wyn Stanley cause he thought it was posh.

Scott Whitney: 1:27

I normally double check with people before we we start recording. But I just thought I'll just go with it. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. So tell us a little bit about Alex to start with.

Alex Winstanley: 1:41

Yeah my background's in teaching Scott. I always wanted to be a PE teacher since going to high school. I was never into sport as a little kid and then went to high school, started playing rugby league. I'm from Wigan in the north. You probably know, you'll know where that is. But not many people will. But yeah, rugby league is massive, so it, and it massively brought out my confidence. Looking back, it, it changed me as a person. And that then led to me becoming a secondary PE teacher but also then at about 19 years old, I fell into becoming a part-time personal assistant to local, disabled, young adults. And that completely influenced my ethos and values and everything about me really and completely led me to where I am today. That was just over 10 years ago, giving away my age, but I carried on that role throughout my teaching career as well until 2019 when I left my teaching job and took the plunge. Not the best timing to set up a CIC in September, 2019 but we managed and we've grown and we've done okay. So yeah. Really passionate, as you say about allyship and being strong, positive ally as much as possible because people need it. And yeah, inclusion and diversity are pretty much everything about me now.

Scott Whitney: 2:52

Excellent. Yeah. You say do I know where Wigan is? I've been to Wigan once. I can't recall why I went. But all I can recall was pushing my youngest daughter who would've been less than a year old around around JJB stadium. If it's still called that, now we went around there two or three times. We did laps because I quite like if I go to somewhere and there is a stadium of some sort football, rugby, whatever. I do like to see the differences between different stadiums.

Alex Winstanley: 3:25

It's a good stadium. I've known it all my life now, really. I wasn't lucky enough to remember Central Park, which is the famous rugby league, Wigan Warriors Rugby League ground or even Springfield Park, which is where Wigan Athletic play. So I've always known it, but yeah, good stadium. But I tell you what, Scott, which if you, I'm gonna have to sort you out with this. What you wouldn't have tried is a Wigan Kebab now my friend and our friend Isaac, Recently Isaac Harvey came up to Wigan recently and I forced a Wigan Kebab on him. And he did a little video, which hopefully be out soon. And I still don't know cause I spoke to him the other week when we was in London together for the Disability Power 100 and we were making our way to the event from station. And I said, How did it go? I'm looking forward to seeing this video. And his reaction was, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't the worst thing I've ever had, which I'm not sure what that means, but but I do know what it means. But now a Wigan Kebab that's on the list, Scott.

Scott Whitney: 4:16

Yeah, definitely. I'll definitely try one. And you say there the disability Power 100 event in London. What did it mean to you to be first of all, nominated, but then to be shortlisted in the top hundred.

Alex Winstanley: 4:31

Yeah. Couldn't believe it. An absolute honour. We've existed as an organisation now for just over three years and, throughout Covid and on reflection, Covid probably really hampered our progress without us realizing it, but also was a massive strain on us. The mental wellbeing of our team and myself really trying to drive what we do and support our team. Going through obviously a million challenges as people will appreciate, but it just meant the absolute world. And I tell you, what Scott being in that room it's one of the most surreal feelings I've ever had. It was like, to me, being in a room with hundreds of David Beckhams. If someone, if I was gonna compare it to it was just like being in awe of every single person, like these people that I connected with on, on LinkedIn or other places and spoke to like yourself of virtually. And then you meet people and it's just this unbelievable feeling. And I was like a kid in the sweet shop. I was just so excited. Probably topped it off when I saw George from CBeebies, who my daughter loves, and I was like that's George and had to go and I was like, George, my daughter will just love this if you could get a picture please. And was just chatting to George and his mum were just so lovely. Both of them. I said to George, I really hope you don't mind if I ask for a picture and I would love that. And I thought, do you know what yeah. I just, I was just in awe, just the things that were being said, the people that were speaking. It was incredible. Yeah.

Scott Whitney: 5:49

Putting you on the spot then, who was the person that you met that it meant the most to you? To me, aside from George, because we know he's up there.

Alex Winstanley: 6:00

Yeah, look I can't look past the Isaac I just mentioned him. Then we made our way into the event together. He came and of met me at Euston and we made our way there together. And we were talking all the way and we got there. We both went, we entered and went, Whoa, we're in the wrong place. This is too posh. But yeah I immediately saw just people flocking to him. Do you know what I mean? And you could see just how, what a great guy he is. Just the way he spoke with everyone and the way, the admiration that everyone had for him. Just because of everything that he does, I think in the person that he is. Yeah, I felt pretty proud. I think people were looking at me going, who is this guy following Isaac in here like this, just about carrying bags and stuff, but Yeah. No, that was very cool.

Scott Whitney: 6:39

Isaac's he's not been on the podcast yet, He does remind me most times I speak to him that, I've not been on this podcast yet of yours. But he has recorded a different podcast with me, which will which will come out at some point in the future. Awesome. Yeah, where do we start? Look, I the first thing I've wrote down on my bullet points here is author. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about the books.

Alex Winstanley: 7:05

Yeah absolutely. Again, fell into it. I feel like I fall into these things. That just changed my life really. So Covid hit and first lockdown happened and I'd always spoken to my mom about writing a book about my grandma who had dementia and putting it in a child-friendly way for people to understand, because just we found outside of people impacted by dementia and their families. Nobody talks about it. Just no one really talks about disability unless you've experienced it. No one talks about differences in diversity. I think as a nation and we don't embrace it. We almost challenge all the differences. So I really wanted to do that and just found myself doing it one day and came across was put in touch with a fantastic illustrator who'd already worked on different books before. And we crowdfunded ended up crowdfunding the first book, and it was released in January, 2021. Now, I think it's hard. We call, but it's all a blur, but 2021. Yeah. My grandma passed away unfortunately, the month before just before Christmas. So she never got to see the book, but I'm really proud and that her legacy lives on now through the book through children and young people who've seen it around the world. And yeah it just took off more than expected. It won the Dementia Hero Award in 2021 with the Alzheimer's Society, which was just completely unexpected. I'll be completely honest. I sat exactly where I'm at right now with my wife as there was a power cut because we're on where we live. I'm watching this YouTube link with Richard Madeley reading out like my name and I'm just praying my computer doesn't run outta battery and I just, I was in tears. Just overwhelmed me because I just didn't think that book would have that impact, but obviously it's got such a personal connection. So that then led to books on, depression, cancer tourettes and cerebral palsy, and that's because they were just things that were, that people in my close family or circle of friends have experienced and all of the books are inspired by lived experience and informed by people with lived experience. So that's something I'm extremely passionate about is promoting lived experience. And that's what the books do. So they were taken on by a publisher called Tiny Tree and they're being released by a Tiny Tree in January. So really excited about that and there'll be more releases following that on different long-term health conditions. Lots of suggestions keep coming in which is amazing and I wish I could write about everything. But I am, I've just released another book as well with the Lewy Body Society because outside of that series so that was, my grandma has dementia, my uncle has depression, my cousin has Tourettes, my brother has cancer and my, my child has cerebral palsy there. And outside of that might have series I've been working with charities and organizations on other books. And again, just came from nowhere. They just got in touch and the Lewy Body Society wanted a book on Lewy Body dementia. This has just come up now. So everyone can see that on the Lewy Body Society's website and that's, funds from that, those sales support their work. And then I'm just about to release a book with a former footballer called Emerson Boce, who was the captain of Wigan Athletic in 2013 when they won thFA Cup. He wanted a book on women's football and dispelling myths around women's football and again, supporting inclusion and diversity, which is right up my street. I'm always looking to work with different organizations on children's books just to start that conversation about difference, diversity and inclusion.

Scott Whitney: 10:27

So look, I'm not gonna compare you to to Julia Donaldson, or anyone like that, I look at books that my daughters enjoy and you generally get one or two a year. Two if you're lucky. One, normally we've banged out six in two years. Yeah. How do you manage to, to. I dunno. Get the writing done.

Alex Winstanley: 10:55

Those first five came out in almost the first six or seven months of last year. So there's been a big break since then actually. And first of all, just a huge shout out to Adam Walker Parker, who's the illustrator of those books, and he is incredible. He probably grafted and worked 10 times as fast as your typical illustrators would. Because to be honest, I'd never done it before. I didn't know how it worked. And I followed his lead and at the time his lead was, working solidly on, on those books at the time until he signed, he was signed with an agency. Which has then changed his workload and the way he works a little bit since then. But, fingers crossed we will be working together on more books within that series at a slower pace from next year. But yeah, big thank you to him, but I think in terms of the writing, if you write what you know and you write what you're passionate about, it's one of those where, I wake up at four in the morning some mornings and my wife probably doesn't appreciate, but I can't sleep, so I'll just go and start writing and just whatever comes to mind that, I've been talking to people about, or people have told me about experiences and I write down notes and then listen to people's stories and listen to people's experiences. And that's what informs the book. So it makes it much easier to write them, albeit a child friendly w\y with rhyme. That's probably the biggest challenge. But yeah, it's kudos to everybody else involved, really.

Scott Whitney: 12:15

So you know, the next thing is Happy Smiles training. Yeah. So how did that come about?

Alex Winstanley: 12:23

Yeah I co-founded Happy Smiles Training CIC. It was a blog initially Happy Smiles blog, and the name came from Hayden. My good friend Hayden, who I've known over 10 years now. And Hayden was in hospital in Alder Hay Hospital for nearly a year on and off with different complications due to an operation. And in that time I just asked people to send him pictures of their happy smiles to, to keep head and cheery looking for on his iPad. While he was in hospital all that time and hundreds of people started sending him pictures. It was really unexpected. So that Happy Smiles name just stuck and we started doing videos. We did one about how Hayden lives his life and communicates cause people don't often know how to communicate with Hayden and even though Hayden fully understands what thet are saying almost all the time, in fact, shout out to Hayden cause it's his birthday today. So happy birthday, mate. But yeah we did this initial video and again, just got this thousands of people it was reaching, which was really unexpected. So we started to do more videos with different people, different disabled people to talk about their lives and everything and just try. I don't like the word normal, but almost tried to normalize disability and difference. And and that's what we started to do. And then yeah, we started to do training in my school. I taught in local community groups and the feedback that one parent rang in and was like my daughter's come home today and just said she's never seen anything like it when you delivered some training today with disabled people. And that's because I think Scott, as a society, as a community, as a whole, as a nation, we just, again, we don't embrace diversity enough. We don't speak to different people who don't look like me, for example, as a white, 30 year old male. That's what became the driver of everything probably as well. Things like, knowing this, all the stats out there but also knowing the lived experience of local people who he knew be hearing things like a little girl saying to her dad once she said, Daddy, why is that man in a wheelchair? Speaking about Hayden and we heard it and the dad just looked and walked now, he wasn't being a horrendous individual. He just didn't know how to answer that question, and that's why we said we need to answer that question. We need to answer people's questions that they want to ask, but are sometimes too afraid of how to ask them. And that's where it all came from. Just over 10,000 people later that we've worked with now children, young people and adults in schools, community groups, businesses, universities solicitors are all sorts of different places and organizations across sectors that we've worked with. And, upskilled, 15 local disabled young adults who have delivered our work. So we've created this pathway to employment for disabled people. We've employed disabled people. Over 60% of our employees are disabled. People with long-term health conditions, and that's a massive driving force for us and a massive passion. And over 90% of our overall organization are disabled people. Although it seems to always be me that doesn't stop talking. I'm really bad at that. Ask anyone on the team, as you can tell. I'm just so passionate about empowering disabled people to lead our work.

Scott Whitney: 15:18

That's awesome. And we got a petition running at the minute, which is about having accessibility taught as part of the school curriculum because it, you get so many people, Let's use a web designer as an example. They go, School, they do their A levels, they go to university and they do their initial training, whatever it is to to become a web designer. And that person has not, through that whole process, has not been taught anything about how to make a website accessible. So do you, when you go out and when you teach and up skill people, are you working. People without disabilities and health conditions as well as people with disabilities. Yeah.

Alex Winstanley: 16:05

Everybody, Everyone's Scott you are a hundred percent right. Throughout my teach training, never once, we didn't have any training from lived experience. And yeah, you spot on inclusion, disability, the, these sort of topics are always a bolt on process. Whether we like it or not, they are. Andinclusion needs to come from the start, and we talk about making like as a teacher we talk about making lessons, more diverse in how we can make these adaptations but they are always a bolt on process, and that's got to come from right from the start. That reverse inclusion model, if you will. Yeah, I, in terms of our work, that's why we deliver to any, anybody disabled non-disabled people children, we've worked with children as young as three and four all the way up to residents in care homes. We try and be as inclusive as possible and adapt our. Offer to suit the needs of the audience.

Scott Whitney: 16:55

And I know when you said about someone looking at Hayden in the wheelchair and asking their dad the question and the dads walked off. I have so much very often. It must be at least weekly if not morea child stare at me whilst I'm out in my wheelchair and I always wave to them or put my thumbs up or something. You, you used the word, which you said you didn't like to choose. Normalize. And what I want to do is by doing that, I feel that when that child goes away, they don't think about the man in the wheelchair. They just think about the man. And and that's something I think society as a whole needs to do. And I think there's a lot of people who are afraid of speaking for fear of getting things wrong. Yep. And how do you overcome that?

Alex Winstanley: 17:53

It's a big challenge, Scott, in terms of I do not want to be the person that people see and go, Oh, shut up Alex he's coming he's like the inclusive language police. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't wanna be out with my friends. I've had this conversation with other allies, like some great friends who have been in the disability world that's supporting people and empowering people and working with disabled people in different capacities. And I say like when someone uses certain derogatory words, the words I'm talking about that are just still embedded in society. And I wanna shake people, sometimes even my closest friends, and be like, Do you know what I do? Do you know where my passions like, makes you feel sick when you say those words? And it's so hard. Cause you still don't want, you don't wanna be the person, we're not gonna out with Alex anymore. Cause you doesn't want to, you can't say anything. And people are scared of what to say. Now that's from probably more negative stance, I think, in terms of where people are just like, I want to help, but I don't know what to say. That's where we always say, look, we're not here to tell you. You have to say this word, or you have to say disabled people, or you have to say people with disabilities. We just wanna make you aware that these are the words and phrases and how they can impact people and empower people. And then we want you to go in and have. Your own choice on how you use those words and how you choose to use those words. And it is a balance. You don't wanna, like I say, overpower people with making people think they can't say anything. It is, it's just about finding that balance and giving people the tools and the toolkit to then go away and think this is how I can, support myself and support those.

Scott Whitney: 19:22

I think when I'm speaking to people now, I became disabled. I wasn't born disabled, so I have two and a half years experience of of living with a disability. So two and a half years is really nothing. So I myself am learning the right language to use about myself, but actually I feel let's take language aside. I think it's the intent of the words that are used that are more important because you can educate someone to use the right words. If they say a word that's wrong, but with the right intent. you can educate them so next time they say the right word. But I think you, you can come up against a brick wall with a word used with the wrong intent. I've titled the podcast How to be an ally So how would you recommend someone what first steps would you recommend to someone if they want to be an ally?

Alex Winstanley: 20:24

I think the key phrase to me is lived experience. I think you've got to immerse yourself in lived experience. It's really interesting. Scott, you said before about, about having a. Living most of your life not having a disability or an impairment. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but about 83% of people acquire their disability in a lifetime. And when you talk to people about that, They don't think about it but when you put it into a context of, look, we're all gonna get pretty old at some point. And look as soon as the Queen started using a wheelchair, for example, everyone was like, Oh, the queen's using a wheelchair. This must mean she's the most ill person in the world almost. And again, at The Disability Power 100, somebody said this great statement, that great quote that people see disability. And health and that, and just see the two combined. Like it's all about if Ill health, if you have a disability. It's about say immersing yourself in that lived experience and really getting to know people's different lived experiences. At the same time, that's why when we were talking, Hayden and I were saying we need to answer these questions that I touched on before. I knew that I couldn't do it as passionate as I am, I can't go to an event and speak about disabled people on my own, without referencing a team, our individuals having a team with me. That doesn't make any sense. I think it's just about including and empowering anyone with lived experience around you to have a voice, to have a platform to have their voice heard and their experiences valued, and give them the opportunity to create that positive social change. Because again, I think around 2% of parliament are less than a disabled people. And look at the way that impacts disabled people. I think until we have disabled people in those positions of influence and positions of, of decision making and power then we won't see that real systemic, national and worldwide change. And I think as an ally, the more that I can do and other allies can do to me that happen, the better.

Scott Whitney: 22:23

I know you've listened to the particular episode of our other podcast, a Purple Pound show, and Richard Bevin said when he was speaking, Mark Webb asked him, How do you get across to a board of directors? And he said, I would ask them to start with has anyone that in your close or immediate family, got a disability or a long time health condition and take it from there as your first step. Now personally, I feel it's harder for my family to see me when I'm in pain than it is for me to be in pain. So I always think when, we talk about people, MP's, et cetera, it's 2% that have a disability, but the number must almost flip itself if they know someone with a disability, either a family member or or a close friend. The decisions you make are impacting them. And that's something that, that, that shocked me.

Alex Winstanley: 23:34

It's it's a great point.

Scott Whitney: 23:36

So we'll be looking at again allyship if someone's thinking I want to be an ally, but I don't know who I want to be an ally too. Now I know you can be an ally in a sense to everyone, but most people will have a particular group of people, that they wish to, to support. What advice have you got for someone who's just I've heard this podcast, I wanna be an ally, but who am I gonna be an ally for?

Alex Winstanley: 24:08

Yeah, I think, first of all, it's just looking, what do your passions lie? What are you passionate about? And how can you connect that with allyship and at the same time? It's something that our team always say when they're out delivering work is just ask, like their favorite phrase is just ask. And I think the more that we can just ask people, what do you need? How can I support you? How can I help? Do you need help? Cause sometimes we assume people need help and they don't. But what can I do to best support, your message, your voice, your experiences. It's just asking that question.

Scott Whitney: 24:43

And I know you've worked in education but people come out of education, they go into work, and employers are sometimes, whether they like to admit it or not, it's a different matter. Are sometimes scared of employing disabled people. So what I just keep asking these, this same thing. What advice would you give to them?

Alex Winstanley: 25:07

Yeah. Oh, I'm trying to think of the right way of putting it without get I feel myself getting, you talk about employees being scared and all these things and everything that we've spoke about so far. Again, being so passionate, I get a bit like, Oh, I've worked up about it, but. You've just gotta give people the opportunity to show you what they can do. I think if you can do that and tell that person centered approach I know so many people who were told there's a, there's an apprenticeship here at such a supermarket. And they're saying I don't really want to do that role. Maybe stacking shelves or sat on a till, that's not for me or, it doesn't suit my needs. It doesn't suit my wishes. I know people who've loved certain placements on jobs, but they've not been accessible. So it's about going, actually, what is this individual? Let's look past that wheelchair user, right? Let's look like past Hayden. Let's look past Hayden's as someone as cerebral palsy. Forget the cerebral palsy. Let's just look at Hayden. What Hayden's. What are his wishes? He'll laugh that I'm using him as an example here, but what is that person-centered approach that we can take to make sure that we wrap that opportunity to, around that individual to best suit their needs, their wishes and have the best, the most positive outcomes and outputs for that individual.

Scott Whitney: 26:15

Yeah, definitely one thing. That I always think is it's you as an employer, you can't decide what someone can or cannot do. I, my, I had a period where I didn't have enough time to do what I wanted to do. So I wanted to find someone who could listen or not listen, who could find the best clip from my podcast, put it into a, an audio grant type of thing with captions. And the person I chose was someone called Juana who lives in in America, now Juana's profoundly deaf. And it's not up to me to decide whether she's got the ability to pick out the best clips or not. And yeah, everything she did absolutely amazing. You then look at Isaac, we've mentioned a couple of times, and and he's a video editor. Yeah. However, Isaac was born with no arms. Yeah. Now I'm using some really amazing characters and amazing people. But people with disabilities, disabled people learn to adapt. say this so many times. I always just think that employers need to know that people aren't gonna apply for a job that they haven't got the skill set or the ability to do. And then like you said, it's seeing past the disability and seeing the person their attitude, their drive and most of all their talent. Okay. So as we're wrapping up the question I like to to ask people that's a final question is if you could make one change to society, what would that change be?

Alex Winstanley: 28:11

That is, that's the ultimate question, isn't it? What a question and where do you start? I think it's all about for what we do, we're Happy Smiles Training, we wanna put ourselves out of a job. Do you know what I mean? Essentially, we don't want to be delivering this training in, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it might be. But realistically, that's going to need to continue to happen unless, like I say, disabled people are in those positions of power and influence. So for me, I think in terms of in society, If I could have, if I could have two there, Scott. One is that I'm really passionate supporting the social model of disability. And I love, and at the same time I love to see people, disabled, people working together to support that. And you wouldn't believe the amount of people within the disability world that sometimes I come across and seem to work against each other and I'm like, we're all working for the same cause. But yeah, I think the main thing for me in terms of that change is, Having disabled people in those leadership positions, in those power of, in those positions of power, influence, and decision making. And I think once that happens and people with lived experience are making those decisions, we're gonna see those decisions made for the many and not the few.

Scott Whitney: 29:19

And you mentioned there about people fighting against each other. What do you think? What reason do you think people have to fight against each other when ultimately they, they got the same Cause?

Alex Winstanley: 29:32

I have no idea. I think people, you, we've named some people on this podcast. I listened to people speaking yourself and I'm just, I said before, I'm just listening to them going, Wow, this is just me. This is everything I, this is my passion as well. I love it. And I just wanna naturally just connect with those people. And I think the more you surround yourself with those people, the better and offer it from a happy smiles point of view. Every time we work with likeminded organizations trying to achieve what we wanna achieve around inclusion and diversity. That's when we have the most positive outcomes. Whereas I think, when we have conversations with people who say, Oh yeah, we're doing training too maybe, you can teach us something one day or, we're covering all those topics as well, so maybe don't come into our turf, or, that type of attitude. It just doesn't work. It, I just think long term it will never.

Scott Whitney: 30:21

Yeah. It's just about. Getting people to that goal, not about who's responsible or, or who's who's achieved it. It's just about, it's being achieve. Yeah, definitely Scott. I love it. And then that's where, the more we can work together with people like anyone that is doing something similar trying to achieve that same goal the quicker we'll get there, that just makes complete sense.

Alex Winstanley: 30:45

We all want to get there. We all wanna see that same we don't want to be the ones, sticking out our flag necessarily at the top of the mountain and saying, That was me first. Certainly I don't I just think every time I reach out to someone like I like yourself, people like-minded individuals, and they get back and we start a conversation, the power from that is always what I absolutely buzz off. And I just think, do you know what we're moving in the right direction. So the more we can have those conversations and support each other, the. Yeah,

Scott Whitney: 31:11

no, I totally agree. And like you said I get an energy from it as well, which I like take forward. Again, just before we round up, have you got a final message that you'd like to our listeners to hear?

Alex Winstanley: 31:24

Wow. No, I feel like I've plugged myself enough. I feel like I've plugged happy smiles enough. So no, I just want no thank you for everything you are doing. And I think the final message would be for everyone to buy into everything y'all doing. Be it memberships, be it, whatever that you produce and whatever comes out of All4Inclusion, buy into All4Inclusion it's everything that, I'm all about and many other people are supporting it. Everyone just keep getting behind it.

Scott Whitney: 31:51

Thank you. Everybody for listening. We'll be back in in two weeks time with another amazing guest for The All4Inclusion Pod. Thank you for listening. But most of all thank you very much for coming on, Alex.

Alex Winstanley: 32:05

Yeah, thanks Scott. Thanks for everyone listening. Actually, I've got one other thing I forgot to say. My other one of bit. If you're ever up in the northwest and you and Manchester, your near Wigan try a Wigan kebab.